Makes sense.M+, even at level 15, is easier than Heroic raiding.It is now in bfa because you have the gear, it's definitely not in the beginning. The whole m+ concept of "being fast!" has an immanent flaw imo; overcoming a serious challenge requires tactic, coordination, well-execution of the _whole_ repository of your abilities and thinking outside the "tank and spank" box... unfortunately that's not something m+ affords .It forces you to it quickly and if you wipe just once you have failed. That's not how I remember wow. When I overcome a difficult challenge I should have an epic feeling of accomplisment, nomatter how many times we wiped. But I'm basically just getting a slap in the face because I didn't do it in time. So it's like getting a candy and a kick in the balls at the same time.What they SHOULD do is make 5-man dungeons as hard as it was in TBC. If anyone remembers what is was like to go into heroic Shattered Hall pre-raid knows what i'm talking about. This is what I consider to be an epic challenge, you wipe you cry but once you complete it, it feels so much better AND you get loot and attunement to get into raid. No time-pressure just complete it - if you can. It's like Blizzard is saying: I dare you to complete this, see if you can. There's your motivation and feeling of accomplisment right there.
Mythic+ was designed as an alternative to raiding, now you're making it so the only way some players are able to gear is worse than raiding. horrible idea.
can't say I know a lot about M+, cause I mostly do raids .but I think since you can do 1 raid(heroic or mythic) per week, and even then you are subject to rng, the raids should be more rewarding. I agree that M15 is a lot harder than most of heroic raid bosses but they can be done over and over (at least I think so, I can be wrong here, I don't do much M+ maybe any at all, so if that's so please let me know)
I'll weigh in on this...but my opinion is that turning ANYONE off from any aspect of the game - be it PvP, exploration, crafting, dungeon spamming, etc., and then using ilvl as the way segregate everyone, will only have them running in circles trying to please the players (and the majority of the players don't give a ____ about mythic raiding anyway...PvP for example has a much larger interactive playerbase number-wise)I understand that ion is still huge into mythic raiding, and he is def still surrounded by "elitist jerks" (don't worry i'm teasing! i was a big poster on their website back in my college days), but i don't like the way he's designing this aspect of the game...If anything, Just like PvP (which i know he does not play very much either), he is missing a huge opportunity to push an area of the game people are really crazy about...I mean no other MMO has systems as polished as WoW PvP or Dungeons (at least imo, no other CURRENT one i watch comes close). I really hope ego over something like gear quality is not what is keeping his team from exploring or expanding on the passion from folks in these alternate POPULAR parts of the game.That being said, I don't think mythic raiders should dictate what is good/bad/ugly in the game. I think it's awesome they get high end gear, and the "best" trinkets, etc. but...honestly i don't see why ilvl has to be the defining factor in everything with this game now. I think High end PvP, High End M+ and high end Raiding should all be equally rewarding, and the tuning should be in the gear, not so much just ilvl....it just seems really lazy and not as innovative...it takes creativity and logic and TIME to really create unique items/rewards...one of these elements has been missing and hindered the game's evolution. I wouldn't listen to the community on topics like ilvl and reward systems because they're just so biased and too much ego gets in the way...hope this entire system with the ilvl differences and stuff will eventually fade away over the next few years.I just don't like being forced into doing anything in WoW...They have been a lot pushier over the past few years and I don't like it at all..huge turnoff...it started out with things like Pathfinder, and now it's mandatory game-stuff like forcing players to raid just to be optimal in a reasonable amount of time...i'm not sure i like that...I think there's ways to reward mythic players while also not hollowing out amazing ideas with great potential like mythic+...If a dungeon wants to be a dungeon player - let them be a dungeon player...what if they don't want to raid? they shouldn't have to. There ARE ways to make gear more quality than other tiers without just bloating the ilvl...Obviously this is just my take on things...i'm not a hater or anything, i really enjoyed BFA and I'm sure I'll enjoy shadowlands..but this is just something I really think they should think twice about.<3PS: I did read someone say that a heroic raid is more challenging than a +15....I'll speak from my own experience, as if i'm speaking to someone not really into M+...let's first assume the comparison is to successfully timing the dungeon - it's night and day - m+ is much more difficult and in many cases - a lot more punishing on players that make mistakes. One death could be gg...not so much for a raid encounter. yeah you still get loot even if you fail a M+, but you get infinite chances to try and kill a boss in a raid without it punishing you other than time wasted and repairs (because in M+ your key will drop a level if you fail). I play a healer - healing a heroic raid is not nearly as complex as TIMING a Mythic+ dungeon...there's more expected out of me, and it forces me to explore my class much deeper. I use more abilities, and find myself having to think outside of the box sometimes (due to the everchanging affixes) to contribute to the team's overall success....in a raid, for the most part, I'm just healing and conserving mana while also standing out of bad...i mean that to me is very basic play. M+ and PvP made me a much better player than when i was only doing raiding. I'm sure that's not the same for everyone, but yeah...anyway...comparing static content like a raid (which is the same EVERY. SINGLE. WEEK. to an ever changing mode like M+ or the unpredictable nature of PvP...yeah heroic raiding is def an easy mode. maybe during the progression period of a raid - you can make that argument that it's "difficult", but no - heroic raiding is not hard, nor should the gear trump a +15 completion imo.
What are people even talking about? HC raiding is like a mythic+ 4
Please tell me, what's the hard part in heroic raid again after first 2 weeks of release? Compared to m+ which for some reason still doesn't have higher reward for higher tier players yet. People do heroic as 30 members(10 boosters, 20 buyers) and still easily clear the entire instance.
Are you talking about mythic+2 then? Try mythic+20 and youll realize its harder than mythic raiding. Use your brain.
Well, now that both are open, we can close this argument: m+15 was done in time before heroic raid got cleared, and both seem to be very hard with current gear levels, so calling them roughly equal in difficulty seems fair. Personally, for past expansions I have found m+15 easier than last boss of heroic raid, having done both on multiple chars every week. M+ is still pretty generous for providing gear. Gives better gear than you could ever get from heroic raids, and on week 1 even provides a 226 which raid content has no access to (max 220 there).
I still don't know why people think endlessly farmable content should offer the same level of loot as raids that can only be done once per week. When it was comparable I don't think I ever saw highly geared players that weren't wearing at least 75% M+ gear.Blizzard could have done something like make each dungeon offer higher ilvl the first time they are done on a high key, or say the first 5 dungeons done in a week.However, they always take the easy route out. Personal loot was done to eliminate tickets regarding loot.
Because there needs to be one avenue in the game to grind out loot endlessly that isn't timegated. Conquest, timegated. Raid, timegated. M+ is the one thing preventing this game from being full-moba
Just did a M11 and got 203 ilvl gear, not 207 as shown in the graph.